[Closed] Your Thoughts! Bootstrap 3 vs Foundation 4

[g.en.e]

I opted the twitter team to get an academic to a thesis of creating a true css compressor, that optimalizes the css by combining the optimal set of joined-property-groups and applicable selector-tuples. To go even further, one would want a css target + target html inspector to factor out any unused css and refactor the selector precedence to the optimal minimum.

This beast would also solve your dev’s problem to be too lazy to pick the optimal used sub-set of the so called bloated framework. I would revise that statement to a ‘lazy programmer’, that renders the feature ‘lazy’ (good programmers) into ‘obliviousness’ (there it is again :): script-kiddy-grade, sorry dave).

[g.en.e]

-2 for Skeleton; In my up-to-date chrome browser their websites menu is broken;

My reasoning:
– Eat your own dog food
– If so: it fails on your very own site.
– If not so: WTF (excusé le mot)

maybe to easy, but a point for sure

[AnnaLiv]

@svetafriend

AnnaLiv, if you search for “responsive html5 css3 framework” you’ll find lots and lots – too many.

Yes, that is the problem exactly!

@Arcturus Do you really recommend 25 frameworks? I know it depends on what’s required but I don’t have time to look into every single one and was hoping to narrow my investigation to a few tried & trusted suggestions rather than get an exhaustive list :) Deeve007 was so confident in his assertions that I assumed he had some specific recommendations, but he didn’t respond to anyone asking so maybe not…

@g.en.e My main requirement is a responsive grid system, I definitely don’t want themes. The hope is to find a framework or two that I can use for most/all projects. I need one to get a site up & running quickly so don’t have a lot of time to spend researching. After this project though I can spend more time if needs be.

I’m an experienced developer and I normally prefer to do a lot from scratch, but I also don’t see the point in re-inventing the wheel so I am open to using frameworks if they are suitable.

I’ve tried Skeleton and it might do the job, but I’ve had a look at Foundation (for the grid only) and it seems much more flexible than Skeleton, especially the block grid. Also, I may be wrong but Skeleton only works with breaks?

The main criticism I’ve seen for Foundation is that its bloated, but if I choose to only use the grid then that isn’t an issue. So I guess my question is are there any other negatives before I delve into it and hit a stumbling block?

(@CWS sorry for latching on to your thread!)

[g.en.e]

There you go girl! In my opinion you just need people to back your choice. In thruth Dave is right here that there is no best fit for any given situation. But when in doubt, i would go for any of the two named here. Let the nay-sayers say nay, that they are bloated is just only true for the full library included when using only bits. This is a feature, because they build a framework for a wide variety of purposes.

Having said that, using one of them can get the not so seasoned developper into the ‘duh’, ‘what-now’ or even ‘wtf, i’m going back myway’ if you’re not able to do the milage. Should you need some advice/guidance I think this really is off topic, just throw me an email [email protected]. I can show u what these frameworks are capable of in tomorrows technology AND be faster / leaner than 99.9% of them sites out there. The thing I ask in return is sharing your finding here in this forum for the Daves amongst us.

[Dustin]

@Arcturus Do you really recommend 25 frameworks?

I’d say the most maintained out of them all is Pure.

[g.en.e]

a word to the wise:

0.3.0 is stating:

• we don’t take responsibility for our current version in production
• we don’t have the userbase, nor man power to get it up to the v1.0
• we’re not sure if we will ever get to a v1, maybe we’ll die an early death because of F4 / BS
• if you’re running into problems, the fora probably will not answer your questions
• we’re uncertain how many refactorings will follow in the (near) future.

Your not seriously suggesting ppl to build upon that much uncertainty?! For most of us this is serious buisiness, with serious stakes involved. my advice (again and again): go for the bigger fish, fry it, eat it and then get rid of it by doin everything your way. And not a second before.

[Dustin]

we don’t take responsibility for our current version in production
we don’t have the userbase, nor man power to get it up to the v1.0
we’re not sure if we will ever get to a v1, maybe we’ll die an early death because of F4 / BS
if you’re running into problems, the fora probably will not answer your questions
we’re uncertain how many refactorings will follow in the (near) future.

Where are you reading that? I’ve never used it but that’s interesting.

[Alen]

I just typed a huge response that got cut out by css-tricks… ohh well… short version…

Foundation is open source, extract the code you like/need/want and adjusted it to your project… possibly your own framework.

I might settle on CSS Inuit by Harry Roberts http://inuitcss.com/

Here are his two talks about CSS.
Architecting Scalable CSS – http://vimeo.com/67544231

and

Normalising designs for better quality CSS
http://youtu.be/ldx4ZFxMEeo

In general I try to stay away from frameworks and only use the code that I need as I go along with the project.

Hope that helps.
-Alen

[Dustin]

I just typed a huge response that got cut out by css-tricks… ohh well… short version…

You know, I’ve had a long post disappear after an edit as well. I also had two threads which I gave up on because they never appeared. Seems like a nice forum but a lot of features are left out here. Maybe that’s to cut down on load times, but I’m still seeing over 12 seconds on 3G, and over 5 seconds or more on a cached version.

In general I try to stay away from frameworks and only use the code that I need as I go along with the project.

I agree, and while I think Foundation is probably voted as the best one, frameworks tend to take away from original, creative designs. And that’s not mentioning that a large majority of web designers who use them don’t completely understand CSS. Some would say that with frameworks you don’t need to know how CSS actually works. However, I’d disagree and say that the more creative people in this industry most likely don’t use them.

[Dustin]

Has anyone actually gone from not using frameworks (everything was custom) to using frameworks and found it to be faster or better in some way?

Chris in 2008 said, “…CSS frameworks aren’t for me. I feel like all-said, CSS is a pretty simple language. I kinda like writing my own CSS. I don’t feel like a need any help and I can’t really picture any framework saving me loads of time. That’s just me though, and you should make your own call. “

A poll in 2009 revealed that over 50% of people don’t use CSS frameworks.

Inayaili de Leon, in 2011 wrote about it on Smashing Magazine saying,

“As mentioned, “frameworks” are probably the dirtiest word in a CSS author’s vocabulary — or second dirtiest, after “Dreamweaver.” (Note: this article was written before the advent of Adobe’s Muse.)

Often when discussing the subject of this article, people walk away assuming that the message I am trying to get across is to use CSS frameworks. That’s not correct. But it isn’t entirely incorrect either. Let me explain.

Frameworks are an important tool in a CSS author’s repertoire. By that, I don’t mean that you should blindly use popular frameworks such as Blueprint or 960 Grid System. Sure, these frameworks have nailed some things, and we can certainly learn a lot from their flexibility and modularity, but it’s more important that you — especially if you’re on a team — adapt a framework to the needs of you, your company and your team.“

The article also quoted Eric Meyers who said,

““You can’t identify a code craftsman by whether or not they use this framework or that language. You can identify them by how they decide which framework or language to use, or not use, in a given situation.” This statement couldn’t be closer to the truth. Discussing tools without context is pointless.”

[Dustin]

A more recent article seems to reiterate what I mentioned earlier:

“Personally, I advise against using web frameworks in your projects. New developers may find their growth stunted by over reliance on prefab code, while experienced developers are often slower using a framework rather than starting from scratch. To me, the benefits outweigh the costs. In a recent Industry Radio Show live chat, Pedro Carmo (@drocarmo) phrased this reasoning quite eloquently: “I think frontend frameworks disable people’s creativity. It teaches you how to edit code, but not to create code.””

[Alen]

We have to realize that not everyone has same issues and use cases. Doesn’t really matter what Chris, George or We have to say about frameworks. You have to make the right assessment based on experience and project requirements.

If you’re working for someone, time is money, you might not be able to start from scratch. Adopting to a particular framework becomes essential.

While many (all) frameworks have bloat, we shouldn’t be worrying too much about that. There are other speed improvements to be made that would make more of an impact. Like images.

If you are still worried about bloat, you can still load enought CSS to get all the “above-the-fold” content visible on screen, then just conditionally load the rest.

There are many workarounds. Framework is just a tool. IMO. Just like a hammer, you could misuse it and miss the mark hitting your thumb. :)

It’s a tool. Use it to get fast mochups, demos, even production code you could go back to and refactor. Especially if you’re working for large-size business, shipping fast is essential.

Hope that helps.
-Alen

[AnnaLiv]

Thanks for all the advice & suggestions, guys.

I agree that some of these frameworks can be misused by people who don’t understand them, which is probably why they can be frowned upon by some. But we shouldn’t forget the usefulness of frameworks in general – they get a project off the ground quickly, and its pointless re-inventing the wheel every time if there is something suitable already out there. If you have enough programming skills, you can customise it to suit.

Time is money as Alen said, and tight deadlines often mean that compromises have to be made somewhere in the project.

I’d love to have time to develop my own framework from scratch, but right now I’d rather use a framework that may not be ideal but that is tried & tested, than to compromise on some other area that could affect the quality or functionality of the website.

Just my thoughts! :)

[Alen]

@AnnaLiv

The main criticism I’ve seen for Foundation is that its bloated, but if I choose to only use the grid then that isn’t an issue. So I guess my question is are there any other negatives before I delve into it and hit a stumbling block?

As far as I know Foundation is Open Source MIT license, so you can extract the parts you need and make the framework that fits your project. Although, I would suggest CSS Inuit. Very lightweight and based on BEM-style naming convention, Object Oriented CSS.

Here’s Harry Roberts creator of CSS Inuit, and two of his talks about CSS.

• Normalising designs for better quality CSS
• Architecting Scalable CSS

I didn’t get to read all the responses, but hopefully this wasn’t mentioned before.

Hope that helps.
-Alen

[Dustin]

Has anyone actually gone from not using frameworks (everything was custom) to using frameworks and found it to be faster or better in some way?

Chris in 2008 said, “I think I have, and that just for me personally, CSS frameworks aren’t for me. I feel like all-said, CSS is a pretty simple language. I kinda like writing my own CSS. I don’t feel like a need any help and I can’t really picture any framework saving me loads of time. That’s just me though, and you should make your own call. “

A poll in 2009 revealed that over 50% of people don’t use CSS frameworks.

Inayaili de Leon, in 2011 wrote about it in Smashing Magazine in 2011 and stated, “_As mentioned, “frameworks” are probably the dirtiest word in a CSS author’s vocabulary — or second dirtiest, after “Dreamweaver.” (Note: this article was written before the advent of Adobe’s Muse.)

Often when discussing the subject of this article, people walk away assuming that the message I am trying to get across is to use CSS frameworks. That’s not correct. But it isn’t entirely incorrect either. Let me explain.

Frameworks are an important tool in a CSS author’s repertoire. By that, I don’t mean that you should blindly use popular frameworks such as Blueprint or 960 Grid System. Sure, these frameworks have nailed some things, and we can certainly learn a lot from their flexibility and modularity, but it’s more important that you — especially if you’re on a team — adapt a framework to the needs of you, your company and your team._”

Also quoting Eric Meyers saying, “You can’t identify a code craftsman by whether or not they use this framework or that language. You can identify them by how they decide which framework or language to use, or not use, in a given situation.” This statement couldn’t be closer to the truth. Discussing tools without context is pointless.”

[Author]

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