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    I wish there was a rant section. Why are so many people basing their whole expertise on frameworks? I mean, if you wanna cut corners, fine… But at least learn a solid foundation of coding yourself, so if frameworks suddenly vanished, you could still work! It’s frustrating to me that so many people want to breeze through this. Learn to write from scratch, it’s seriously not that hard and you won’t have to load a bunch of nonsense just to make a site. I’m fine with jQuery I suppose, but I’m mostly talking about CSS frameworks. CSS to me, is the funniest part of creating sites because it’s like the paint that I get to create with on my canvas. Haha, ok, I’m done.


    I think there are many people out there who DO learn the basics and have a solid foundation.

    But even then, what if someone does want to work with a framework, without having learned things from scratch? Why is this such a problem for you if someone else feels comfortable creating sites using that method?


    That’s perfectly fine, I’m only speaking to the ones who want the easy way out, then post a million questions about why things aren’t working. I understand having questions, but I see so many questions about such basic things, that if you knew HTML and CSS, you should be able to figure it out.


    Any let’s not forget that digging into the way a framework actually..erm…works can help those just starting out understand layout basics.


    I get that. Use them as references, learn from them, etc… All I’m saying is, don’t rely on them in place of actual understanding. I’m only basing this on many forum posts here where people are using them, then asking why simple things don’t work.

    As a matter of fact, I think things like html5 boilerplate are great resources to learn from, but I’d never recommend copying and pasting it verbatim.

    Anyway, maybe I’m the only one that feels this way, so it’s not a big deal.


    Sometimes the best way for someone to learn something is to take apart what someone else has already done and then put it back together (how I learned to build computers for example).

    I say as long as you understand the parts you are dealing with and what they do, there is nothing wrong with using frameworks, snippets, etc. I personally don’t use frameworks unless my boss requires it but I’ll use snippets to help speed up my workflow. :)


    Well said @theacefes



    Your an arrogant, unhelpful, jumped up .. i’ll stop there.

    I don’t understand why you would be complaining on a forum about people asking for help, you’ve basically hijacked my first post to pick me up on not closing my meta tags which i may add didn’t have nothing to do with the problem i was asking about..

    CSS frameworks such as blueprint, bootstrap, ect are exactly that, frameworks, basically allowing you to put in place the structure of your site effectively while saving you time, the actually styling is done by whoever is building the site after and has nothing to-do with framework, this is where people would learn or put there CSS into practice.

    It’s not hard to float, align your divs in place but its time consuming to keep rewriting that out, doesn’t make sense to do so ever project you have.

    Whats happened you’ve learnt how to code HTML in notepad and you think you’re zeldman or something? if you’re so great at html then use the forum for the good and to help people not to pick on irrelevant areas you believe are wrong and attack people.

    I’ve posted one question on this forum and for me, personally @msguerra74 has put me off using this again, you complete and utter knob!


    @msguerra74 Just for the record, I’m a partial creator of the CMS/Framework that @rgcouk is using, and the self-closing HTML tags is perfectly valid : See Start Tags #5

    I have been working closely with @rgcouk to get this site working as he wants, and I’m not sure how much in-depth development experience you have had, but generally, there is a team of people who work on a project, a front-end team which is what rgcouk is part of, so he deals with the designs directly, and a backend-team which is myself and a few others. We deal with the data manipulation and template parsing to HTML.

    So as for your comment, “Create a framework from ground up” is a redundant comment at best, as that is exactly what we have done.

    The same way that your site uses jQuery and jQuery UI, I’m sure you didn’t write them, and I know a lot of people who can use jQuery but have no idea how to do anything in raw Javascript.

    As for CSS Libraries and Frameworks, there is no reason why you can’t use them, if they make your life easier, why create something that is already there, which does everything you want it to. I can understand from a learning point of view, but there is no other real benefit.

    using snippets is a great idea in principle, but the issue I know a lot of people have is the dependencies that the snippets have on other code (More with Javascript/PHP, not so much CSS, but can apply to all languages in principle). So in a lot of cases it could take just as much time to sieve through all of the dependencies as it would to use the framework.


    @rgcouk, I’m sorry for jumping on your about that, it’s perfectly fine for you to develop however you want. As for your other comment, I’ve actually never coded in Notepad, I learned with Macromedia Homesite. Don’t stop using the forum because of me, please.

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