I usually use wordpress, I know that it's a blogging platform but it does have the ability to add pages and those pages are overall pretty easily customized. You could just not display blog posts anywhere and just use the pages that wordpress offers.
Just my thoughts though I'm sure someone will have another suggestion.
Great-- so how should I approach this? I have my mockup all finished up for each page within Photoshop. Should I just go ahead an code it like a normal page (html and css, add images and everything)? Or should I just code within the WP files?
Also, any solid WP theme creation tutorials out there? I have seen a few, but they are all for blog-type WP sites.
These days, though, there seem to be some pretty amazing WordPress templates that are design to be a starting point. I checked out underscores recently and thought it was pretty great: http://underscores.me/
As @strages said - Perch is super awesome for sites that need a straightforward user interface, or basically sites that could be static aside from the content like text/imagery.
I have about 90% of my customers on perch and they love it.
I've been eyeing perch for a while - I like how it's progressed.
@andy_unleash how does image management work? The one thing that always seems a frustration is the management of larger images clients upload and they can make it show up with smaller pixel dimensions but the file size was still 2mb. When you upload images in Perch does it resolve that issue?
@ben_boomer@strages you should check out our newly launched https://copybar.io . We built it for the exact use-case you enumerated. It can be implemented client-side or server-side, works with WP, and gives your users the power of incontext editing in addition to element by element ACL. I use it for a number of different client sites where WP is too clunky and my clients want a simpler workflow. Please forgive the shameless self-promotion, but I sincerely think Copybar would be useful in this case.
@JoshWhite - within perch you can set a "crop" size - so forcing a maximum real pixel amount.
It then creates a cropped version of it - so for example if they uploaded a digital shot at 5000x4000px you can force it down to 600x480 (for example) - the new file will be much smaller.
I assume a lot of copying/pasting. I just looked into it and I'm not a fan. I would essentially have to learn an entirely new way on how to structure my pages. Plus, I bet the SEO aspect is not nearly as great compared to Wordpress. This appears to be targeted towards really small sites anyway.
Most clients want a CMS they can use though - just to make their lives easier. While some of these nosql or no database CMS's are fine with us nerds, if I was to suggest to a client paying thousands for a site that they have to learn markdown I doubt it would go well.
As much as Wordpress being the goto/defacto CMS depresses me, I'd use that over an option that requires a customer to learn any type of code any day.
@andy_unleash I dont believe the client would have to learn markdown to be able to edit content. There is an admin panel with a GUI for editing and adding content.
@ChristopherBurton yeah for a blog I would probably not use this. It seems like a viable option for static sites that need a "CMS" though.
@ChristopherBurton - I know most web dev's swear by it as the ultimate system, but it's not a CMS - it's a blog platform that has evolved over time, but at it's core, it's a blog system. A CMS should be ultra simple & user friendly, especially for non-technical customers.
For example, all of our projects are business sites, so some with e-commerce, others just informational sites, none of our customers know anything about web design/development/coding etc etc. They just want to be able to login, switch in a new page, add some content, update an image or post a blog post with no mess or fuss - almost like they were using MS Word.
Wordpress for me is problematic from a user experience point of view. Sure - I could train them up on how to use it, which parts to avoid etc etc - but ultimately my problem with WP is that it's everything and the kitchen sink. It's not ultra clean and simple (which is what we endeavour to provide) and also I find that WP really holds us back.
Sure you can write plugins/grab plugins for everything which is great, but in my opinion everything should be from scratch and the CMS an afterthought.
I love Perch for those exact reasons. It allows us to build a site completely from nothing, all HTML/CSS/PHP etc etc, and then throw in the CMS only where it's needed, total freedom and makes our dev cycle super fast.
The main benefit is though that customers love it and after showing it to them for 5 minutes they just "get it" and are happy creating new pages, adding content and editing to their hearts content.
Ultimately it's all about the customers ease of use for us. I'm sure people will exclaim I'm wrong - and I'm sure I am in a lot of cases, I'm not besmirching everyone who uses WP for customer projects. It's just not to our taste and in my experience not the best option for our customers. Other developers' mileages may vary!
But you can tweak Wordpress (even the backend). I actually agree with some of your arguments. Especially it being really bulky. With my site, I literally create functions to hide things I do not use as they are pointless options to be seen. I'm a designer and I'm not that great with the development side of things but I think Wordpress can be transformed into something everyone can use.
I have used WordPress for massive websites and have done WordPress training sessions with clients. After every training session the response is always, "I can't believe it's that easy, this is going to be great."
@TheDoc yes that's true BUT I do have to side with andy in that while I've had the same experience as you have had in client training, it seems like post project is a little more up in the air.
Sometimes I'll have clients that just have a hard time getting it long term and they will ask the same questions over and over despite even having a manual to reference back to.
I'm wondering if Perch will solve that. In these cases, it's usually a client with a very simple site and they just simply don't log in frequently enough to develop that cms "muscle memory" to remember where to go. Any case that where I've had clients with a lot of hans on involvement in their site work great in WP.
I would venture to say that Wordpress' best future development lies in simplifying and making it easier to customize as a CMS to scale with client needs. Personally I'd like to see a totally scalable dashboard with a more integrated backend/front end. I'm not a Drupal fan, but I really did like the way Drupal's dashboard sort of lays over the actual website. It really makes for a more cohesive feel.
Perhaps Wordpress doesn't need to be the standard basis for every client. Wordpress has certain functionality and features however that not all clients need. Josh, as you expressed, clients that only need to update or login here and there and have issues learning Wordpress, maybe Perch would be the solution.
@JoshWhite - definitely check out Perch, grab a single license and give it a whirl - I promise it's totally worth it.
Re: Wordpress - I'm not against it completely, I know a lot of devs/designers swear by it, but for me it's the "all seeing, all powerful eye" - as in it takes over everything.
For me a CMS should be easy to use and simple for customers and stay out of the way during development.
Perch is great as an example because it can be thrown in at the end of a project. You can build out all the entire site how you want it and then just chuck in like;
<?php perch_content('CONTENT AREA');?>
Easy peasy.
You can make it more complex and have it manage menus, page templates, a blog app etc - but it's as simple or complicated as you want it to be.
Just for the WP peeps - I have used Wordpress before on certain projects - particularly real estate websites because there are some great plugins for it and Perch doesn't have that ultra power quite so easily.
I had the worst experience with PERCH!! It is super easy for the client to use once you have got it up and running but it is really complex to use is you are not a developer but a designer like me. It was easy enough to create basic editable zones but if you want to do anything else you need to have extensive knowledge of PHP code and don't expect Perch to help you. Their support system sucks big time. perch ended up costing me a LOT of time, money and stress. I ended up having to hire a developer and my clients are still angry at me because of the time it took and all the little glitches that keep coming up. So unless your a confident web developer I would say stay clear of perch!!!
Square space was recommended to me after I used perch and I reckon it is a step up from wordpress but haven't used it myself yet.
Squarespace is in a tough position at the moment. From a developer's stand point, it's not something that I'd give to a client. Building custom themes and implementing them is troublesome. The biggest problem is that there is no 'Theme Options' panel where you could have toggleable fields (eg. Slider, Sidebar options, Color options, etc).
I'm not suggesting that WordPress is perfect for every project, though. I would say that's it's going to work for the majority.
@Ren I'd say that a good next step for you is to get a little more familiar with the development side. This is a step that I really had to push myself to evolve. Depending on the types of clients you get, you never know what will get thrown at you. If a client comes in with some off CMS, or something you may not be familiar with like Modx or like Textpattern (known but more obscure).
Perch SHOULD be a breeze - if you had trouble with it, you would definitely have trouble with Squarespace doing anything beyond the prebuilt solutions with no real customizations. LightCMS is in the same boat IMO. I really like the functionality, but after downloading a few themes and messing with it, I found it to be very clunky to work with. Perch seems on par with solutions like PageLime (which I'm not a fan of because of the remote management).
Great info guys - thanks for the suggestions. I've lined up a project that I think Perch will work out on, and luckily the client is someone I know which'll be nice to go into it really seeing how well it works.
@Ren I'd personally say that Perch should be super easy for a competent front end developer. I am not by any means a backend developer and PHP is not my strong suit. The template system for content areas, pages etc are all HTML based and you don't need to know PHP code inside out to develop with it. I'd posit that it's about 10x as easy as Wordpress.
The only thing you may run into that may prove complicated are PHP arrays which you sometimes need to get Perch to output exactly what you want, but they have an extensive docs library at docs.grabaperch.com that usually have example arrays to help.
They also have videos and support there. Also, with their support they're always really hot on it, whenever I post a ticket Drew or Rachel come back within a half hour with information or request more details and do really try to help.
@JoshWhite definitely give it a bash and let me know how you get on, if you run into any trouble with it feel free to ask any questions, you can grab my deets at http://lkd.to/andyunleash
If all you want to do is create simple editable zones than yes Perch is easy but as soon as you start to use any of their applications, such as galleries, events or calendars it can become very complicated. I'm glad you have a lot of support from Drew and Rachel Andy because I have found them incredibly unhelpful. I feel like every time I ask for help they just brush me off or say something incredibly obvious and unhelpful.
I ended up having to pay a developer to finish the project and there are still glitches, which funnily enough Rachel just palmed me off to this forum because she says it's a CSS problem, which I don't think it is.
Personally I don't think developers should be recommending perch as a 'easy' CMS to designers, many designers just simply don't have the skills to use it and the support provided is inadequate! I used it after being recommended by a developer on a similar forum and it is one of my few regrets in life. Perch wasted a lot of my time, caused me a lot of stress and cost me money. So Ben_boomer, unless your confident with PHP code I would stay well clear of Perch and stick with something like word press that seems to work for many people.
I'm sorry but I completely disagree, Perch is not complicated for front end designer/developer, or at least it really shouldn't be if they know the standard amount required to create straightforward well coded sites.
It's all HTML based, creating templates is easy and all of the required PHP is included in their documentation (if you read it) so I fail to see the complexity for a front end developer, especially compared to other CMS systems like Joomla, Drupal & Wordpress et al. It's the simplest of all of them.
Can you mention the issue you had? I'm sure we can confirm if it was a CSS or Perch issue.
I am creating a straight-forward static website for a client who wants control of the content after I am finished.
What would be the best CMS to use? Am really looking for something that is easy to customize, won't look like a blog, etc.
Thanks in advance. -Ben
I usually use wordpress, I know that it's a blogging platform but it does have the ability to add pages and those pages are overall pretty easily customized. You could just not display blog posts anywhere and just use the pages that wordpress offers.
Just my thoughts though I'm sure someone will have another suggestion.
Depending on the size of the site, WordPress might be overkill though it's usually my first choice.
Great-- so how should I approach this? I have my mockup all finished up for each page within Photoshop. Should I just go ahead an code it like a normal page (html and css, add images and everything)? Or should I just code within the WP files?
Also, any solid WP theme creation tutorials out there? I have seen a few, but they are all for blog-type WP sites.
Cheers
I used to prefer going in this order:
These days, though, there seem to be some pretty amazing WordPress templates that are design to be a starting point. I checked out underscores recently and thought it was pretty great: http://underscores.me/
Brilliant-- so it is sort of like a template reset of sorts? Pretty excited to start this project!
Yea, it strips everything down and provides you with a relatively good starting point.
I also recently checked out http://underscores.me and plan to create a theme from it.
Other than Wordpress, you might want to check out EE
check out perch ;)
As @strages said - Perch is super awesome for sites that need a straightforward user interface, or basically sites that could be static aside from the content like text/imagery.
I have about 90% of my customers on perch and they love it.
Textpattern is another
I've been eyeing perch for a while - I like how it's progressed.
@andy_unleash how does image management work? The one thing that always seems a frustration is the management of larger images clients upload and they can make it show up with smaller pixel dimensions but the file size was still 2mb. When you upload images in Perch does it resolve that issue?
@JoshWhite I think there is a plugin for Wordpress that crunches the image automatically for you. YCruncher or something like that.
@ben_boomer @strages you should check out our newly launched https://copybar.io . We built it for the exact use-case you enumerated. It can be implemented client-side or server-side, works with WP, and gives your users the power of incontext editing in addition to element by element ACL. I use it for a number of different client sites where WP is too clunky and my clients want a simpler workflow. Please forgive the shameless self-promotion, but I sincerely think Copybar would be useful in this case.
@JoshWhite - within perch you can set a "crop" size - so forcing a maximum real pixel amount.
It then creates a cropped version of it - so for example if they uploaded a digital shot at 5000x4000px you can force it down to 600x480 (for example) - the new file will be much smaller.
I have been meaning to try this out. Its seems like i might be really cool for small sites.
http://statamic.com/
@pkinchla I'm very curious how it works without a database.
me too. using it as a blogging platform seems like magic to me. What happens if you decide you want to migrate to another platform.
I assume a lot of copying/pasting. I just looked into it and I'm not a fan. I would essentially have to learn an entirely new way on how to structure my pages. Plus, I bet the SEO aspect is not nearly as great compared to Wordpress. This appears to be targeted towards really small sites anyway.
Most clients want a CMS they can use though - just to make their lives easier. While some of these nosql or no database CMS's are fine with us nerds, if I was to suggest to a client paying thousands for a site that they have to learn markdown I doubt it would go well.
As much as Wordpress being the goto/defacto CMS depresses me, I'd use that over an option that requires a customer to learn any type of code any day.
@andy_unleash I dont believe the client would have to learn markdown to be able to edit content. There is an admin panel with a GUI for editing and adding content.
@ChristopherBurton yeah for a blog I would probably not use this. It seems like a viable option for static sites that need a "CMS" though.
@andy_unleash Why are you against Wordpress as a CMS?
@ChristopherBurton - I know most web dev's swear by it as the ultimate system, but it's not a CMS - it's a blog platform that has evolved over time, but at it's core, it's a blog system. A CMS should be ultra simple & user friendly, especially for non-technical customers.
For example, all of our projects are business sites, so some with e-commerce, others just informational sites, none of our customers know anything about web design/development/coding etc etc. They just want to be able to login, switch in a new page, add some content, update an image or post a blog post with no mess or fuss - almost like they were using MS Word.
Wordpress for me is problematic from a user experience point of view. Sure - I could train them up on how to use it, which parts to avoid etc etc - but ultimately my problem with WP is that it's everything and the kitchen sink. It's not ultra clean and simple (which is what we endeavour to provide) and also I find that WP really holds us back.
Sure you can write plugins/grab plugins for everything which is great, but in my opinion everything should be from scratch and the CMS an afterthought.
I love Perch for those exact reasons. It allows us to build a site completely from nothing, all HTML/CSS/PHP etc etc, and then throw in the CMS only where it's needed, total freedom and makes our dev cycle super fast.
The main benefit is though that customers love it and after showing it to them for 5 minutes they just "get it" and are happy creating new pages, adding content and editing to their hearts content.
Ultimately it's all about the customers ease of use for us. I'm sure people will exclaim I'm wrong - and I'm sure I am in a lot of cases, I'm not besmirching everyone who uses WP for customer projects. It's just not to our taste and in my experience not the best option for our customers. Other developers' mileages may vary!
But you can tweak Wordpress (even the backend). I actually agree with some of your arguments. Especially it being really bulky. With my site, I literally create functions to hide things I do not use as they are pointless options to be seen. I'm a designer and I'm not that great with the development side of things but I think Wordpress can be transformed into something everyone can use.
I have used WordPress for massive websites and have done WordPress training sessions with clients. After every training session the response is always, "I can't believe it's that easy, this is going to be great."
@TheDoc yes that's true BUT I do have to side with andy in that while I've had the same experience as you have had in client training, it seems like post project is a little more up in the air.
Sometimes I'll have clients that just have a hard time getting it long term and they will ask the same questions over and over despite even having a manual to reference back to.
I'm wondering if Perch will solve that. In these cases, it's usually a client with a very simple site and they just simply don't log in frequently enough to develop that cms "muscle memory" to remember where to go. Any case that where I've had clients with a lot of hans on involvement in their site work great in WP.
I would venture to say that Wordpress' best future development lies in simplifying and making it easier to customize as a CMS to scale with client needs. Personally I'd like to see a totally scalable dashboard with a more integrated backend/front end. I'm not a Drupal fan, but I really did like the way Drupal's dashboard sort of lays over the actual website. It really makes for a more cohesive feel.
@JoshWhite @TheDoc
Perhaps Wordpress doesn't need to be the standard basis for every client. Wordpress has certain functionality and features however that not all clients need. Josh, as you expressed, clients that only need to update or login here and there and have issues learning Wordpress, maybe Perch would be the solution.
@JoshWhite - definitely check out Perch, grab a single license and give it a whirl - I promise it's totally worth it.
Re: Wordpress - I'm not against it completely, I know a lot of devs/designers swear by it, but for me it's the "all seeing, all powerful eye" - as in it takes over everything.
For me a CMS should be easy to use and simple for customers and stay out of the way during development.
Perch is great as an example because it can be thrown in at the end of a project. You can build out all the entire site how you want it and then just chuck in like;
You can make it more complex and have it manage menus, page templates, a blog app etc - but it's as simple or complicated as you want it to be.
Just for the WP peeps - I have used Wordpress before on certain projects - particularly real estate websites because there are some great plugins for it and Perch doesn't have that ultra power quite so easily.
I had the worst experience with PERCH!! It is super easy for the client to use once you have got it up and running but it is really complex to use is you are not a developer but a designer like me. It was easy enough to create basic editable zones but if you want to do anything else you need to have extensive knowledge of PHP code and don't expect Perch to help you. Their support system sucks big time. perch ended up costing me a LOT of time, money and stress. I ended up having to hire a developer and my clients are still angry at me because of the time it took and all the little glitches that keep coming up. So unless your a confident web developer I would say stay clear of perch!!!
Square space was recommended to me after I used perch and I reckon it is a step up from wordpress but haven't used it myself yet.
Squarespace is in a tough position at the moment. From a developer's stand point, it's not something that I'd give to a client. Building custom themes and implementing them is troublesome. The biggest problem is that there is no 'Theme Options' panel where you could have toggleable fields (eg. Slider, Sidebar options, Color options, etc).
I'm not suggesting that WordPress is perfect for every project, though. I would say that's it's going to work for the majority.
@Ren I'd say that a good next step for you is to get a little more familiar with the development side. This is a step that I really had to push myself to evolve. Depending on the types of clients you get, you never know what will get thrown at you. If a client comes in with some off CMS, or something you may not be familiar with like Modx or like Textpattern (known but more obscure).
Perch SHOULD be a breeze - if you had trouble with it, you would definitely have trouble with Squarespace doing anything beyond the prebuilt solutions with no real customizations. LightCMS is in the same boat IMO. I really like the functionality, but after downloading a few themes and messing with it, I found it to be very clunky to work with. Perch seems on par with solutions like PageLime (which I'm not a fan of because of the remote management).
Great info guys - thanks for the suggestions. I've lined up a project that I think Perch will work out on, and luckily the client is someone I know which'll be nice to go into it really seeing how well it works.
@Ren I'd personally say that Perch should be super easy for a competent front end developer. I am not by any means a backend developer and PHP is not my strong suit. The template system for content areas, pages etc are all HTML based and you don't need to know PHP code inside out to develop with it. I'd posit that it's about 10x as easy as Wordpress.
The only thing you may run into that may prove complicated are PHP arrays which you sometimes need to get Perch to output exactly what you want, but they have an extensive docs library at docs.grabaperch.com that usually have example arrays to help.
They also have videos and support there. Also, with their support they're always really hot on it, whenever I post a ticket Drew or Rachel come back within a half hour with information or request more details and do really try to help.
@JoshWhite definitely give it a bash and let me know how you get on, if you run into any trouble with it feel free to ask any questions, you can grab my deets at http://lkd.to/andyunleash
If all you want to do is create simple editable zones than yes Perch is easy but as soon as you start to use any of their applications, such as galleries, events or calendars it can become very complicated. I'm glad you have a lot of support from Drew and Rachel Andy because I have found them incredibly unhelpful. I feel like every time I ask for help they just brush me off or say something incredibly obvious and unhelpful.
I ended up having to pay a developer to finish the project and there are still glitches, which funnily enough Rachel just palmed me off to this forum because she says it's a CSS problem, which I don't think it is.
Personally I don't think developers should be recommending perch as a 'easy' CMS to designers, many designers just simply don't have the skills to use it and the support provided is inadequate! I used it after being recommended by a developer on a similar forum and it is one of my few regrets in life. Perch wasted a lot of my time, caused me a lot of stress and cost me money. So Ben_boomer, unless your confident with PHP code I would stay well clear of Perch and stick with something like word press that seems to work for many people.
I'm sorry but I completely disagree, Perch is not complicated for front end designer/developer, or at least it really shouldn't be if they know the standard amount required to create straightforward well coded sites.
It's all HTML based, creating templates is easy and all of the required PHP is included in their documentation (if you read it) so I fail to see the complexity for a front end developer, especially compared to other CMS systems like Joomla, Drupal & Wordpress et al. It's the simplest of all of them.
Can you mention the issue you had? I'm sure we can confirm if it was a CSS or Perch issue.
Welp, I think it is settled then.
Perch sounds like it will be easy to use since the client only really needs access to a couple of different parts.
Thanks all for the suggestions.