So you know the scenario where you either post a problem or are helping somebody with a problem and they don't respond for a few days or you don't respond for a few days and the post gets forgotten and the world starts to end.
But really, sometimes waiting hours or days for a duder you're trying to help or somebody who is helping you can be a bit frustrating.
Based on these opinions, I decided it would be nice for css-tricks to have live chat. These chatrooms could be moderated to eliminate abuse and wild kids being wild.
This would enable us to help and be helped on an immediate and live basis.
Who says it needs to be big? It could potentially have the same user base as it does now. Anyway, when did the fear of hackers ever stop anybody from trying to make something popular? I think it would be a great addition to css-tricks.
You're not reading correctly. I said having a big site like this, meaning CSS-Tricks is a big website, will attract hackers with a live chat. I'm not necessarily saying it is a bad idea if you have the time to keep updating the security aspect of it.
And user base of what, what are you comparing it to? The forums? I think you would be surprised by the amount of people who will show up to the chat compared to the amount of people posting in the forums.
Anyway, when did the fear of hackers ever stop anybody from trying to make something popular? Not sure it has, but it has made the number 1 chat, Userplane, restructure its website because of it.
Personally, I like answering questions in my own time. Also, it's no ones 'job' to be on these forums. By this I mean that people generally have lots of other stuff going on.
I won't be able to answer things immediately since I'm normally busy. I answer questions and reply as soon as I can and this 'as soon as I can' can have gaps of up to a few hours.
Exactly, Jamy understands my point. Lets say you use the same password you have for this website for your email, facebook, bank account ,etc. A hacker could create a brute force program to try to crack your password on the chat using vulnerabilities. From there, he could find information about you to try to establish a way into other accounts of yours. I can take most of my friends email accounts just by looking at their facebook information. It's quite simple to be honest. It might be quicker to get responses to your questions but in the long run, is it safe?
Of course nobody is required to help anybody or do anything on these forums. If somebody wants to help somebody on an immediate basis, it's their choice. I personally would love to be able to log on and ask a question and have somebody help me in real time as I would love to help people in real time.
Something like this wouldn't need to replace forums. If you don't have time to help somebody in real time, don't help somebody in real time. There would be plenty of people who would be able to help people in real time and even some who enjoy it.
Anyway this is all speculation and probably pointless to discuss as I don't believe it will come into fruition. Would be very handy, though.
Maybe I'll create this myself. We'll seeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
It was definitely not a bad idea and I could see where you were going with it. But the unfortunate side is the vulnerabilities. Good luck and Chris made a PHP chat, just an fyi. Search "PHP V2"
I'm possibly down with the idea. Unfortunately I probably wouldn't be able to hang out in there very often... I'd rather use some kind of hosted solution, but with the ability to embed it into a page here. Campfire isn't going to happen. Little too expensive for a plan that would work, and even the biggest plan might not be quite big enough for large events if we wanted to ever do those. Embedding an IRC window might be a possibility. Anyone know of other good software for it?
@ChristopherBurton, While I agree with you on the increasing security issues with the live chat, I must say that your argument with hackers bruteforcing passwords is not worse on a site with chat than it is on a regular forum like this. There should, no matter the nature of the site, always be a limit on login attempts - like say 3 failed attempts pr hour. Besides that, the most typical issues is XSS and SQL injections - not bruteforcing of passwords. The worst issue with live chats on sites like this is social-engeneering - people who, by cover of helping with an issue, gains access to certain protected areas, e.g. webservers or controlpanels.
@ChrisCoyier, I have not been able to find any decent IRC-webclient. Even though it is a few years since I was looking, I do not think that it has changed much. You would not like to have it running through your webserver, so you should look for a client-side solution. A java-applet or something similar. From my experience they never work well enough to be useable.
In my opinion you should rather create an irc channel on freenode.net and a link from the site + maybe a guide to setup a client and connect to the network from each of the mayor OS's.
Actually, I have been looking for a IRC channel for guys like us, and I have not been able to find anything with a high enough skill and activity level. I would gladly help getting it up and running if there is support for it in the community. Even though I'm 8-9 hours in front of you - time-zone wise ;-)
@gno - It's not really a debate of what is more dangerous than the other or more commonly done. I was just reflecting possible security risks in doing this especially after reading a blog post where @ChrisCoyier in the blog itself said something to the fact a person tried sql injecting one of the demo's. There's another where "noobs" try gaining access to his wp-config file, so its not about what is possible or not. I guess you can't hold back on everything or should because of a potential threat but it does have to be in your mind when you make choices that could effect other people and in this case, a large amount.
I'm glad Chris mentioned using a chat that is already hosted. Userplane is probably the best chat itself. I mean, myspace used it, not sure if they still do as they have been bought out for a while now. Userplane has been restructured after AOL acquired the company in 2008 or 2009 so everything you were able to manipulate has been patched. I have tried java chats and what not but compared to Userplane, I have not seen much competition.
Why don't ya just use http://tinychat.com/ with a password set room where you get the password from the forums.
That will give you a good idea as to if people are actually want to get involved. once you have run it for a month or so - depending on the results - you can find a better solution if it is not working.
First of all, I like the idea of a chat. I found that sometimes when I need little assistance It's easy to have a place to go to. And just ask if sum1 has some advice to get you further. Forums work, but not as well as chat for certain things.
I have to agree on Soap that not doing something because it attracts hackers is not really a good decision. You don't have to script your own chat. There are many solutions. But setting up an IRC of which the instruction on how to connect are explained on a page should work imho. And you could use applets to make it inline in the website.
JAVA applets that can connect to an IRC channel which you will create on Freenode. I'm no expert by all means but I wouldn't care to dive in deeper and even make the instructions.
What do you think Chris? Do you want to give it a try. It won't strain the server or cause security issues.
@ChristopherBurton, My only point is that a live chat itself is not a worse threat than a forum or comments on a blog. SQL injections can happen in any database based application and it is not an issue which is related to just live chats. A chat on a site like this would only be an increase in the attackable surface - while I agree that it is something to consider, I still think that your initial argument is plain wrong. Big sites like this attracts hackers - live chat or not.
I still believe that the best solution for this is a good old plain IRC channel. It would not be a security issue, at all. And besides that, it is an enjoyable technology to use. Simple and unchanged for a lot of years - for a reason - it just works. Its even free...
@ChristopherBurton, then I must say that I fail to understand how that would be an argument against a chat service?
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I do not believe that a open, anonymous, on-the-site live chat is a good idea. Anyone can register on this site, and that is the main reason; People coming here would have a lot of trust to the people who offer them help - partly because they're being nice, and partly because this site have credibility. That trust could easily be abused by evil-minded guys - which the moderators have no chance of keeping away.
No technical solution would be able to protect the users against this.
I understand the desire for a chat room as alternative to the forums. A chat has obvious advantages, but it has a lot of downsides as well. The best way to do this would be an IRC channel. There is an initial barrier for people - they have to setup a client and join the channel and the network first. That keeps the worst kind of users away and those going there to get help will more likely stay and may even help others in the future.
A live chat is the topic of this post, right? I could be wrong but, I think that is why I was making a point that a CSS-Tricks chat would attract hackers. After reading the blog post, Chat V2 and focusing on the vulnerabilities that Chris mentioned and was the reason why the demo was taken down, was the main point of what I was trying to say or did say. However you want to take it.
A chat on a site like this would only be an increase in the attackable surface - while I agree that it is something to consider
That is my main argument. You're debating the same thing you agree with. I never said, "having a big site made it worse", but having a large scale website will be more prone to attacks. It's a fact.
@ChristopherBurton, My apologies for the misunderstandings. My point was just that a chat is not more vulnerable than anything else from a technical point of view - which was what I thought you said it was.
@soap, The average Joe can be fooled... I'm not saying that it should be the main argument against a live chat on the website, but it should be one of the major concerns. It was mainly part of the misunderstood discussion between me and Christopher.
@Robskiwarrior & @soap - I know that I haven't been around too long, but I cannot recall any situations where people have flamed one another on this forum? ;-)
While we're at the apologies - I'm afraid that we've buried the original posts intent in the safety discussion...
I think it would be awesome to have an IRC channel (or something similar) where the community could help each other out and just hang out when we need a little time off from the dirty work ;-) So - I'd like to know what are our chieftain @ChrisCoyier is thinking...? :-)
a forum where people apologise for misunderstandings? Can't we get some kind of award for this?
Hahaha.
Anyway.
Where we are at on this is I'm not going to do anything until something I feel is a perfect solution comes along. For some reason IRC turns me off and I haven't seen anything else yet that does it for me. If someone wants to do some research on it, go for it and let me know. What I'd be looking for is
1) Embeddable into other page 2) Good design, possibly customizeable 3) Not incredibly expensive but could be paid
IRC probably is best. There is various embeddable widgets for dropping in specific IRC chats, like we do for #shoptalkshow at shoptalkshow.com/live when it's live. I'll think about it for the next redesign
So you know the scenario where you either post a problem or are helping somebody with a problem and they don't respond for a few days or you don't respond for a few days and the post gets forgotten and the world starts to end.
But really, sometimes waiting hours or days for a duder you're trying to help or somebody who is helping you can be a bit frustrating.
Based on these opinions, I decided it would be nice for css-tricks to have live chat. These chatrooms could be moderated to eliminate abuse and wild kids being wild.
This would enable us to help and be helped on an immediate and live basis.
Discuss.
And user base of what, what are you comparing it to? The forums? I think you would be surprised by the amount of people who will show up to the chat compared to the amount of people posting in the forums.
Anyway, when did the fear of hackers ever stop anybody from trying to make something popular?
Not sure it has, but it has made the number 1 chat, Userplane, restructure its website because of it.
Sad part is, the site is still vulnerable.
Personally, I like answering questions in my own time. Also, it's no ones 'job' to be on these forums. By this I mean that people generally have lots of other stuff going on.
I won't be able to answer things immediately since I'm normally busy. I answer questions and reply as soon as I can and this 'as soon as I can' can have gaps of up to a few hours.
Something like this wouldn't need to replace forums. If you don't have time to help somebody in real time, don't help somebody in real time. There would be plenty of people who would be able to help people in real time and even some who enjoy it.
Anyway this is all speculation and probably pointless to discuss as I don't believe it will come into fruition. Would be very handy, though.
Maybe I'll create this myself. We'll seeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
Read the update as well
@ChrisCoyier, I have not been able to find any decent IRC-webclient. Even though it is a few years since I was looking, I do not think that it has changed much. You would not like to have it running through your webserver, so you should look for a client-side solution. A java-applet or something similar. From my experience they never work well enough to be useable.
In my opinion you should rather create an irc channel on freenode.net and a link from the site + maybe a guide to setup a client and connect to the network from each of the mayor OS's.
Actually, I have been looking for a IRC channel for guys like us, and I have not been able to find anything with a high enough skill and activity level. I would gladly help getting it up and running if there is support for it in the community. Even though I'm 8-9 hours in front of you - time-zone wise ;-)
I'm glad Chris mentioned using a chat that is already hosted. Userplane is probably the best chat itself. I mean, myspace used it, not sure if they still do as they have been bought out for a while now. Userplane has been restructured after AOL acquired the company in 2008 or 2009 so everything you were able to manipulate has been patched. I have tried java chats and what not but compared to Userplane, I have not seen much competition.
That will give you a good idea as to if people are actually want to get involved. once you have run it for a month or so - depending on the results - you can find a better solution if it is not working.
Forums work, but not as well as chat for certain things.
I have to agree on Soap that not doing something because it attracts hackers is not really a good decision. You don't have to script your own chat. There are many solutions. But setting up an IRC of which the instruction on how to connect are explained on a page should work imho. And you could use applets to make it inline in the website.
JAVA applets that can connect to an IRC channel which you will create on Freenode.
I'm no expert by all means but I wouldn't care to dive in deeper and even make the instructions.
What do you think Chris? Do you want to give it a try. It won't strain the server or cause security issues.
I still believe that the best solution for this is a good old plain IRC channel. It would not be a security issue, at all. And besides that, it is an enjoyable technology to use. Simple and unchanged for a lot of years - for a reason - it just works. Its even free...
--
I do not believe that a open, anonymous, on-the-site live chat is a good idea. Anyone can register on this site, and that is the main reason; People coming here would have a lot of trust to the people who offer them help - partly because they're being nice, and partly because this site have credibility. That trust could easily be abused by evil-minded guys - which the moderators have no chance of keeping away.
No technical solution would be able to protect the users against this.
I understand the desire for a chat room as alternative to the forums. A chat has obvious advantages, but it has a lot of downsides as well. The best way to do this would be an IRC channel. There is an initial barrier for people - they have to setup a client and join the channel and the network first. That keeps the worst kind of users away and those going there to get help will more likely stay and may even help others in the future.
A chat on a site like this would only be an increase in the attackable surface - while I agree that it is something to consider
That is my main argument. You're debating the same thing you agree with.
I never said, "having a big site made it worse", but having a large scale website will be more prone to attacks. It's a fact.
@soap, The average Joe can be fooled... I'm not saying that it should be the main argument against a live chat on the website, but it should be one of the major concerns. It was mainly part of the misunderstood discussion between me and Christopher.
I agree that anyone can be fooled and nothing is hack proof.
*Tips hat and adjusts monocle*
While we're at the apologies - I'm afraid that we've buried the original posts intent in the safety discussion...
I think it would be awesome to have an IRC channel (or something similar) where the community could help each other out and just hang out when we need a little time off from the dirty work ;-) So - I'd like to know what are our chieftain @ChrisCoyier is thinking...? :-)
Hahaha.
Anyway.
Where we are at on this is I'm not going to do anything until something I feel is a perfect solution comes along. For some reason IRC turns me off and I haven't seen anything else yet that does it for me. If someone wants to do some research on it, go for it and let me know. What I'd be looking for is
1) Embeddable into other page
2) Good design, possibly customizeable
3) Not incredibly expensive but could be paid
Edit: Nevermind. Userplane integration is a pain in the ass. Not to mention, I chose a free package to do the demo and they charged me. Go figure.
@ChrisCoyier, I did some research and it seems like right now IRC is probably the best bet.
I found http://www.mibbit.com/demo.html. It's an embeddable iframe IRC client. It doesn't look TOO bad.
I think this would be awesome!
That won't allow me to send?
sometimes it's best to have buttons to fall back on